Quotulatiousness

October 25, 2021

P90: FN’s Bullpup PDW

Filed under: Europe, History, Military, Weapons — Tags: , , , , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 2 Jul 2021

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FN began developing the P90 in the late 1980s, actually preceding the NATO requirement that it would eventually compete for. The idea of the P90 was to develop a weapon for secondary troops to replace 9mm pistols and SMGs. There was an anticipated threat of Russian paratroops wearing armor that could defeat 9mm ball. The P90 was intended to be a light and handy weapon that was easily controllable without a tremendous about of training, and could defeat that sort of body armor.

The result was the 5.7x28mm cartridge, firing a 31 grain armor-piercing bullet at 2350 fps. This was combined with a simple blowback action and a Hall-style 50-round magazine in a fully ambidextrous, bullpup layout. The gun was introduced onto the market in 1990, and has been widely purchased by security and special operations organizations. In its original intended role for support troops, it has only been adopted by Belgium.

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August 29, 2021

MP-28: Hugo Schmeisser Improves the MP18

Filed under: Germany, History, Military, Weapons — Tags: , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 22 Aug 2017

The MP28,II was Hugo Schmeisser’s improved take on the original World War One MP18,I design. It used a simple box magazine in place of the Luger drum magazines, and this magazine would form the basis for a long series of military SMG magazines. It was a double-stack, single feed design because Schmeisser thought this would prevent some malfunctions that were possible with double-feed magazines (and because Mauser probably had a patent on the double feed box magazine at the time). This magazine would be used in conversions of MP18 guns, and would also be the model for the MP-38/40 and subsequent British Sten gun magazines.

The MP28 also introduced a semiautomatic selector switch, where the MP18 had been a fully automatic-only design. It is the presence of this selector button over the trigger, along with a tangent sight instead of a simple flip-up notch that can be used to distinguish between an updated MP18 and an MP28.

While the MP28 was not formally adopted by the German military, it was used by police and SS units, as well as being adopted or copied by a wide selection of other nations, including Portugal, Spain, China, Japan, and Ethiopia.

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August 19, 2021

Hill SMG/Pistol: Inspiration for the FN P90

Filed under: History, USA, Weapons — Tags: , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 28 Apr 2021

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John L. Hill was a World War One fighter pilot [in the short-lived Canadian Air Force] who went into the oil and gas industry, and enjoyed tinkering with guns in his free time. In 1949 he got an idea for a new style of magazine and feed system, which he developed and patented in the early 1950s. Hill’s intention was to create a submachine gun for the military or police that held its magazine flat atop the action, instead of sticking out of the gun where it would get in the way. To do this, Hill designed the system that would be later used in the FN P90, with ammunition held perpendicular to the barrel, and a turret mechanism in the action to turn the cartridges 90 degrees for feeding in the chamber.

Hill built seven or eight fully automatic prototypes, which were examined by the US Army and the FBI. One was tested at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1953, and we still have some of the photos from that examination (that particular gun was built using an MP40 barrel, interestingly). Hill’s guns varied in pretty much all details, including different barrel lengths, stock configurations, and magazines. Some used single-stack and some double-stack magazines, but all were a simple blowback action.

At some point in the late 50s or early 60s, Hill sold his patent rights to a pair of Texas businessmen who built 90 or 100 more examples (mostly semiautomatic) under the name H&B Enterprises. They took one to FN in Belgium, who found it interesting but did not opt to license or produce it. Ultimately, nobody was interested enough to put the gun into production, and only a small number of the H&B guns survive today. The original Hill prototypes were donated to the Lone Star Flight Museum in Texas in 1993, although it is not clear where they are today.

When FN began to design the P90 in the early 1980s, Hill’s concept made a return. It is not known exactly how much direct link there was between the Hill prototype and the P90 concept, but the eventual patents filed on the P90 do reference Hill’s patents (among others). The P90 remains the only production firearm to use this clever rotary feeding system.

Hill’s patents:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2…​
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2…​
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2…​

For more documents, see the Forgotten Weapons page on this design:
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/hill…​

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August 14, 2021

Infantry Weapons at Guadalcanal – WW2 Special

Filed under: History, Japan, Military, Pacific, USA, Weapons, WW2 — Tags: , , , , , , , — Nicholas @ 04:00

Update: The folks at the World War Two channel have taken down this video due to technical errors in the script. Here’s their explanation.

World War Two
21 hours ago
Video on Infantry Arms at Guadalcanal retracted. Indy explains why:

Hi everyone. Indy here. As most of you know, I do the research and writing for all of the regular weekly episodes here. I host many of the specials as well, though I do not do the research for most of them- occasionally so, if it’s something that’s really in my field of expertise, like geopolitics, strategy, personal stories, communications, and international relations. The research for the other specials is done by a variety of specialists in their fields or historians, so we can maintain the quality you’ve come to expect from us. I understand, though, that many of you have serious issues with the research for the Guadalcanal infantry special. Our apologies for that- the research was done by an historian, a PhD [student], actually, and we also ensured it was double fact-checked, but obviously some serious mistakes slipped through. Live and learn. I will say that I think it is important that you continue to tell us when you take issue with something we present, since we strive to make the most complete and accurate documentary series possible, so although some of them are hard to read we appreciate such feedback from our community.

And this is from the researcher who worked on the script:

Marlon Londoño
18 hours ago
Hey guys! This is Marlon, the PhD student in question who helped with the researching and writing of the episode. Just to give a little background, I’m a volunteer researcher who helps with the channel over the summer while I’m not teaching/researching/taking coursework. I’m a military historian and my main academic focus is on social and cultural military history (i.e. what people’s wartime experiences were like and why. I’m especially interested in how people justify wartime violence and oftentimes the types of weapons they use play a role in that mental process, so that’s the context in which I usually think about weapons on the battlefield).

I’m sorry that I let a lot of you down with the mistakes about the Garand and Arisaka, among others. To be honest, I was surprised to learn they were myths. But I certainly know now, and I don’t think I’ll be forgetting any time soon 😅 One thing that I firmly believe as a researcher and educator is that nobody has a monopoly on the truth, least of all me. I tell that to my students on the first day of class each semester. I certainly don’t presume that the degree I’m pursuing makes me infallible or instantly qualified for anything. And this was a classic example of just how wrong I can be sometimes!

For what it’s worth, I love war history just as much as anyone else in the community, and I’m sorry that my research wasn’t as rigorous as it might otherwise have been. I hope you all might be willing to give any future episodes of mine a second chance, and of course I’m all ears for any mistakes that you want to point out!

July 29, 2021

MAT 49: Iconic SMG of Algeria and Indochina

Filed under: France, History, Military, Weapons — Tags: , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 16 Jan 2018

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The MAT-49 was developed by France after World War Two to satisfy the need for a more modern submachine gun to replace the MAS-38. The military had come around to standardizing on the 9x19mm cartridge for its pistols and subguns, and the 7.65mm MAS-38 was not feasible to convert. All three state arsenals and the Hotchkiss company submitted designs, and the Tulle arsenal won out with a gun that borrows substantially from the American M3 “Grease Gun”.

About 700,000 MAT-49s were produced between 1949 and 1979, when it (along with the MAS 49/56 rifle) was replaced by the FAMAS bullpup rifle. During that time it saw substantial combat in France’s colonial wars, notable Algeria and Indochina. Despite being a relatively heavy weapon, it came to be well liked by all who used it for its durability and reliability.

Many thanks to the anonymous collector who let me take a look at this piece and bring you a video on it!

If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! http://www.youtube.com/InRangeTVShow

May 15, 2021

Machine Gun Terminology Part 2: SMG, PDW, & Machine Pistol

Filed under: History, Weapons — Tags: , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 12 Jan 2018

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Today we have Part 2 of machine gun terminology — the small caliber guns. Specifically, submachine guns, personal defense weapons, and machine pistols. [Part 1 is here]

Submachine Gun: Pistol caliber, fully automatic, and fitted with a shoulder stock. For example, Thompson, MP40, MAS-38.

Machine pistol: Handgun form factor and fully automatic. For example, Glock 18, Mauser Schnellfeuer, Stechkin.

Automatic Rifle: Shoulder or hip fired, limited magazine capacity, minimal sustained fire capacity. Examples: M1918 BAR, Chauchat.

Personal Defense Weapon: (1) Armor-piercing or (2) holsterable submachine gun, not intended for front line combat. For example, FN P90, H&K MP7, Czech vz.61 Skorpion, Polish PM63 Rak.

If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! http://www.youtube.com/InRangeTVShow

March 23, 2021

The Beretta PM-12S Submachine Gun

Filed under: Europe, History, Italy, Military, Weapons — Tags: , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 22 Apr 2017

For several decades, the Beretta company’s handguns and submachine guns were nearly all designed by the very talented Tulio Marengoni … but nothing can last forever. After World War 2, Beretta engineer Domenico Salza began working on a new SMG design, one which would be more compact and more controllable that the M38 family. At roughly the same time, Beretta changed its naming convention to avoid looking like it was still marketing old guns; the Model 38/49 become the Model 1. Each new design took the next number, until in 1958 the Model 12 was introduced.

The Model 12 (and this improved Model 12S) has both forward and rear pistol grips, and a bolt which wraps around the barrel well forward of the chamber. This movement of the reciprocating mass forward helps reduce the gun’s tendency to climb, and makes the Model 12 a quite capable design. It is still in common use with a variety of military and police forces today — including being a common sight in the hands of security guards in Italy today.

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March 20, 2021

The Uzi Submachine Gun: Excellent or Overrated?

Filed under: History, Middle East, Weapons — Tags: , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 5 Mar 2018

The Israeli Uzi has become a truly iconic submachine gun through both its military use and its Hollywood stunts — but how effective is it really?

I found this fully automatic Uzi Model A to be actually rather better than I had expected. Despite the uncomfortable sharp metal stock, the rate of fire and large sights make this a relatively easy gun to shoot. Not one of the absolute best, but certainly above average.

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January 28, 2021

Doughboy Bringback MP-18,I on the Range

Filed under: Germany, History, Military, Weapons, WW1 — Tags: , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 21 Oct 2020

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The MP-18,I was most likely the first true submachine gun to see combat use, issued in the final months of World War One to German Sturmtruppen. These guns were originally fitted with 32-round drum magazines form the Artillery Luger, but they were almost all quickly changed to standard System Schmeisser box magazines shortly after the war ended. This is a rare example of one still in its original configuration, as brought home by a US soldier as a war trophy.

The MP-18,I set the standard for basically all future SMGs. It has remarkably gentle to shoot, with a low rate of fire and nice big sights. The drum does throw the balance substantially off to the left side, but it has few other serious problems.

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January 25, 2021

Evolution of the Submachine Gun: Three Distinct Generations

Filed under: History, Military, Weapons, WW1, WW2 — Tags: , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 20 Oct 2020

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Submachine guns have gone through a distinct evolution over the past one hundred years. Today we will look at these changes, specifically identifying:

– 1st Generation guns from World War One and through the 1930s
– 2nd Generation guns of World War Two
– 2nd Generation guns after World War Two
– 2nd Generation guns adapted to modern polymer manufacturing
– 3rd Generation guns in the form of rifle actions scaled down to pistol calibers

January 22, 2021

Shooting the M3A1 Grease Gun

Filed under: History, Military, USA, Weapons, WW2 — Tags: , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 9 Mar 2018

The M3 (and its followup improved M3A1 model) was the United States’ answer to the high cost and manufacturing complexity of the Thompson submachine gun. The M3 “Grease Gun” (because really, that is what it looks like) was a very inexpensive weapon with a stamped and welded receiver and only a few milled parts. It also had the slowest rate of fire of any World War 2 submachine gun at about 450 rounds/minute. Its weight, compactness, and controllability made it almost universally preferred over the Thompson, at least by soldiers who had to carry and fight with either of them.

The Grease Gun is reputedly extremely controllable because of its low rate of fire, but this is my first time to actually try shooting one. Will it live up to that reputation?

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6281 N Oracle #36270
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January 19, 2021

M3 and M3A1 Grease Gun SMGs

Filed under: History, Military, USA, Weapons, WW2 — Tags: , , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 14 Apr 2017

The US began looking for a cost-effective replacement for the Thompson submachine gun in 1942, and the “Grease Gun” was the result. Designed by George Hyde (a noted firearms designer at the time) and Frederick Sampson (GM/Inland chief engineer), it was a very simple and almost entirely stamped firearm. Chambered for the .45ACP cartridge, it is notable for its very low rate of fire — 350-400 rpm, which made it quite controllable and easy to shoot for relatively inexperienced troops.

The M3 was a quite reliable gun (and what problems it did have were mostly due to its single-feed magazine and not the gun itself), but a revision program was begun in April 1944. This would produce the M3A1, which further simplified the design by removing the charging handle (which had been the one mechanical trouble point of the M3 anyway) and replacing it simply with a notch in the bolt to cock the gun with a finger.

While the M3 and M3A1 were replaced in front-line service in 1957, they would remain in military inventory as armament for tank crews and truck drivers until 1992 — quite the legacy for such a crude looking weapon!

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January 16, 2021

M2 Carbine: Assault Rifle or Submachine Gun?

Filed under: History, Military, USA, Weapons, WW2 — Tags: , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 23 Mar 2017

The M2 Carbine was a mechanically simple modification of the M1 Carbine to allow fully automatic fire. The fire prototypes of the M1 Carbine had actually been selective-fire guns, but that requirement had been dropped by the time the Winchester design was officially adopted as the M1. It was a feature quickly requested by troops once the Carbine entered active service, though.

In 1944 the US Army acknowledged this, and introduced the M2. A total of 217,000 were manufactured at the end of WW2, and did see limited service on Okinawa — and then extensive use in the Korean War and Vietnam War.

The M1 Carbine has long generated controversy among those attempting to rigidly define its role, as it falls awkwardly between the notion of submachine gun and assault rifle, firing a cartridge that is clearly more powerful than a pistol round but equally clearly less powerful than an intermediate rifle round. Its originally intended role was as a personal defense weapon more effective than the 1911 pistol, and in service it always scored high marks for handiness and poor marks for combat effectiveness. The opinion of soldiers using the Carbine in either its M1 or M2 form was very much dependent on what role they expected it to serve.

In my opinion, its light weight and stock design make it a sub-optimal submachine gun, and its light cartridge makes it a sub-optimal assault rifle. But if you need a light and handy carbine to carry a lot and only use in emergencies, it is hard to beat for its time.

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December 8, 2020

Schmeisser’s MP-18,I – The First True Submachine Gun

Filed under: Germany, History, Military, Weapons, WW1 — Tags: , , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 14 Aug 2017

When Germany began looking in late 1915 for a new weapon ideally suited for the “last 200 meters” of a combat advance, Hugo Schmeisser’s blowback submachine gun would prove to be the weapon that would set the standard for virtually all submachine guns to come. It was a fully automatic-only weapon with a simple blowback action and a rather slow 400 rpm rate of fire. Although relatively heavy, the only real shortcoming of the MP18,I was its use of 32-round Luger snail drum magazines, which was dictated by the German military. These magazines were unreliable and difficult to load, but they were already in production and were a reasonable logistical answer in a time when material and production shortages were an endemic problem in Germany.

The MP18,I managed to see frontline combat only in the closing few months of World War One (50,000 were initially ordered, 17,677 were produced before the Armistice, and only an estimated 3,000 actually saw frontline combat use). During that time, however, it made a significant impression, easily convincing anyone with an open mind that this new type of weapon would play a major role in future wars.

After the end of the war, the Germany Army was prohibited from using submachine guns, so most of the existing ones (including the example in today’s video) were transferred to police organizations instead.

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September 21, 2020

The Iconic “Burp Gun” – Shooting the PPSh-41

Filed under: History, Military, Russia, Weapons, WW2 — Tags: , , , — Nicholas @ 02:00

Forgotten Weapons
Published 16 Dec 2017

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The Soviet PPSh-41 submachine gun is most distinctive for its very high rate of fire — approximately 1250 rounds/minute — and large drum magazine. What may come as a surprise to those who have not tried it is how this very high rate of fire does not actually make the weapon difficult to control or hold on target. In fact, the PPSh-41 is an easier SMG to shoot effectively than the later PPS-43, at least in my opinion.

The Soviets and the Germans made quite different choices in magazines and rate of fire with the PPSh and the MP40, but both turned out to be very good submachine guns. The glaring weak point of the PPSh are its magazines, and the difficulty in finding a drum that would run reliably in this particular example is why today’s shooting session is done with one of the 35-round stick magazines instead.

Thanks to Marstar for letting me examine and shoot their PPSh-41!

If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! http://www.youtube.com/InRangeTVShow

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